OBJ Introduced Due Process To Steal - Ajimobi

AjimobiSenator Isiaka Abiola Ajimobi is the ANPP flagbearer in Oyo State during the April 14, 2007 gubernatorial elections. In this interview with Yemisi Aofolaju and Wale Adele, he spoke on sundry issues that included his brand of politics, his relationship with former governors Lam Adesina and Rashidi Ladoja and the passive attitude of many Nigerians to politics. Excerpts:

It’s been one year since the 2007 general elections in which you were one of the leading contestants. You carried the flag of the All Nigeria People’s Party, ANPP, in Oyo State and has since gone ahead to challenge the victory of Governor Adebayo Alao-Akala. You have spent close to 14 months now fighting this cause, how has it been?
I think it has been very interesting, very peaceful. It is not a fight really, I think it is a struggle, I believe all men of principle know the defined steps to be taken when elections are conducted rightly or wrongly. And in the case of the last general elections, we all knew what happened. We have seen the malpractices and we’ve taken the necessary actions. We’ve gone to the tribunal, we’ve had the result of the tribunal, we’ve seen the compromises manifested in the delivery of the judgment, and we’ve taken the next step which is to go to the Court of Appeal which is a higher court, so I think we are following the electoral processes as defined by the Constitution.

Within you, don’t you think that this process is taking too long?
Changes take too long and good things take too long to come. Nigeria didn’t get to where it is now in a period of one, two or three years, so also if you need to change the environment, it will take time, and that is the process. I believe it is taking very long, but that is what the constitution says, we hope that with the review of the electoral process that is going on, the time will be reduced. I honestly believe that when there is an election, petitions and disagreements arising from there should be concluded before the swearing in of any candidate. I think the process could be shorter.

Your party has eleven honourable members in the Oyo State House of Assembly, but lately, the song is that some of the members are compromising, they are moving to the other side. What is happening to the ANPP family in Oyo State?
I think the ANPP in Oyo State is intact; in any society, gathering, association, you have people who will, from time to time, disagree, be tempted, compromised, change to the ruling side. It takes much courage to be in opposition, to stand by principle, so, if from time to time, you see people who may want to move, it’s allowed, but I think that an internal reconciliation is going on. Even in PDP, they have their problems, all parties would always have problem(s). It is for us to sit down and reconcile and talk and resolve.

In the Nigerian political setting, it is customary to have party leaders, party elders but when one looks at the ANPP in Oyo State, apart from you as the governorship candidate, who are the party elders in ANPP —people at the fore-front of your struggle?
What do you call party leaders or elders...?

We know Lam Adesina for the AC, late Baba Adedibu for the PDP, in Oyo State, who are the fathers of ANPP in Oyo State?
ANPP has many fathers and these are people who want progress and development for the state, we don’t need godfathers in ANPP in Oyo State, In fact, we have more fathers than any of those parties you mentioned. What do I mean by father, it depends on your own definition of ‘father;’ if you are talking of people who support your ideas and quality of good governance, people who support those with credibility and track records, people who have been tested and have performed, the elders of Ibadan, Oyo, Oke-Ogun, etc, are our fathers. They supported us, they don’t just support any party, we are not talking of politics, we are talking of quality people. Let’s get away with all this godfatherism; that’s what is spoiling our country, we are talking of people of credibility, with achievements; it doesn’t matter to me which party I belong to, you will see I was formerly in AD, AC and so on, so, I felt; we should not be straight jacketed in what we are doing if we want to help the society; we want to serve, nobody should sit down somewhere playing God; it’s wrong. I think unless we begin to look at the quality of our people considering the pedigree for appointment, we may not move farward. I think if we are talking of elders, I think all the elders of Ibadan who want progress for Oyo State are our fathers, so, it’s not a matter of political party. But if you are talking of elders in ANPP, Dr. Bushari Adebisi is an elder, he came from a good background, better than many other elders somewhere else, he has his Ph.D, D.Sc, Doctorate degree in Political Science with a very good background. We choose quality people, talk of Chief Okunola in Ido Local Government, he is one of the renowned politicians in this state, talk of Chief Ayankojo in Oyo; we won the whole Oyo in the gubernatorial elections, so what we are saying is that these are the main men, who don’t make noise, who don’t sit down and ask people to bring in money for them, they come out, they support us, they talk, they are inteligent. So, let us get away with this traditional strict jacket mentality, where you must go and see somebody before you serve the people. You want to serve the people, you don’t need to go and see some elders who will seat down and ask you to give them yams, rice, and cows; I don’t think we need that kind of thing. What I am saying is that all the elders in Oyo State who want progress, who don’t care about party alliances, party affiliation(s), who just say look, we see good quality in this candidate and we support him. I think that is the way politics should move. I think we should move away from this elders’ mentality.

Don’t you think the time has come for other parties to come together and speak with one voice, to give bite of opposition to the ruling party because it seems that they are having a field day, they do whatever they like and they get away with it?
Fundamentaly, I think Nigerians are making one big mistake, they are leaving politics to the politicians, it is a big mistake. Look at Europe, the moment they observe that this government is doing what they don’t want, they would all rise up as one, the whole society will rise up and say look, we don’t want this or that. In Ukraine, when they chose a wrong person, they all rose up; they were not even members of any political party. How many politicians do we have in Nigeria, they are not even one percent of the entire population and then the rest 99% will sit back and they will be saying we are praying for you. Our people must come out as a proverb says “Eni ta’ba fi ori re fa’ gbon koni jen’be”, but everybody wants to eat the coconut, nobody wants anybody to use his or her head to break the coconut. Until our people are ready to join the fight and the struggle, there will be no progress in the country, because what you have done in the process is to abdicate your civil responsibility to the politicians. You are saying only politicians and what do we have as politicians —mediocres, failures and such others —who now go into politics to steal your money, that is what is happening. Nature abhors vacuum, if there is a vacuum, somebody will feel it; people like you, all of us must come there, if you sit back and you say it doesn’t bother you, then we will be getting the type of government we deserve.

When I was in Togo and Abidjan( as MD for Shell), I was covering west coast for Shell, if you hear somebody shout thief, everybody will come out and face the armed robbers, the robbers might kill one or two of them, but they would get the armed robbers. But here, if you are 1,000, you hear thief, everybody will run away, so it is a mindset that must be changed, we must all collectively save this country. Therefore, answering your question in a nutshell, it means whether you call it opposition, civil society, labour —anybody who is unhappy with what is happening must find the means to say ‘I don’t agree,’ and look for ways of changing it, and that goes for everybody; so some of us that have come out spending our money, staking our lives, spending our time, what support are we getting from the people, they go and hide in their houses, telling us, we are praying for you. Which prayer, we don’t need it, come out yourself and join us, even the media plays a major role in America and Europe. But look at our media, what do they do, each media will seek to be the voice of its owner, you can’t blame them.

With the kind of politics we play in Nigeria, the volume of violence which the politicians have brought into it, somebody will think that if he has an option, he would stay away from it; that is what is keeping many people away from it.

You can stop the violence yourself, if for instance, the people carrying cutlasses and guns in Nigeria are not up to 10,000 and in Oyo State alone, we are not more than one million, if one million people come on the streets and say ‘no to violence,’ will the thugs begin to kill them? No.
But don’t forget that their ideology is do-or-die.

You have allowed the do-or-die; I use the example of armed robbers in other places, there will always be armed robbers, there will always be bad people, but evil will always triumph only when men of good conscience refuse to act, when people like you and I say they are using cutlass(es), we will sit down. Why do you want to leave only people like me to go and face them, if you are not ready to face them? So, the point I am making is the need to change our mindset. Armed robbers will not come to your house if he thinks he will not get away, but the moment an armed robber thinks he can get away, he will come to your house. There are many ways you can stop people using cutlass(es), it is not only you and I, the police, everybody should be involved, but when the police arrest, only to release them after taking money, they will do it again.

Even if you can’t face people who use cutlass(es), you can disrespect them, you can show them that you don’t want them, you can refuse to do stories for them. Many media people are ready to interview even known armed robbers —people who have stolen, and they will be respecting them, they won’t even ask questions that will call the man’s bluff, that will make him say don’t come here again, so what I am saying is that all of us have roles to play, and it shouldn’t be left to politicians alone. When people use cutlass(es) to win, and you start saying this is wrong, you write about it everyday, they call you for interview or they offer you money, you don’t take it, but you show them that there is more to life than knives, cutlasses, money, they will change gradually, but all of us worship money.We have seen media houses in the US, the UK, they refuse to carry ads for some people based on their policy. I guess our media is not at that stage, even if an armed robber comes to your office, and says here is one hundred million naira, I am sure you will do it. But I’m not blaming the media alone, everybody is involved.

At what point did you have to part with former Governor Lam Adesina whom we all believe brought you into politics?
First and foremost, nobody brought me into politics. I came there on my own, I donated money to different parties, particularly the Alliance for Democracy(AD) and it was a symbiotic relationship, they knew I could win an election, so they allowed me, many others came to say they wanted to contest, but they didn’t allow them. So, I think that they saw that I had potentials. Two, at the time I came into politics, I was 52 years old, and I was born into politics; my father was an honourable member, my uncle was a minister, I have a pedigree of politics, but when you are talking of elective politics, when I sought election and so on, I came there 2002, but before then, even in the days of Chiefs Obafemi Awolowo, S.L. Akintola, Bola Ige, I had always been in politics. I was around during the era of Unity Party of Nigeria(UPN) and later the AD, mixing and donating money to the parties because politics runs in my family. My parents were there, but the most important thing is when did I seek elective office? I think I sought political position in 2002 and I came in and spoke to Alhaji Lam Adesina who was the Governor of Oyo State then. In fact, it was Chief Koleoso (Michael) that invited me to AD; he said what are you doing, why don’t you come, you’ve been donating to the party, what do you want to do? I said I wanted to be a governor; he said ha! I said ‘I’m I too young or old? 1 am 52, going 53 and in other states, the governors are thirty-three, thirty-four. I have an MBA, I’m the Managing Director of Shell, not Ajadi & Sons, so I am qualified to contest.’ He said look, why don’t you come and run for senatorial seat, and I said no problem, that was how I came. So, if you are talking of bringing in, I don’t know that, if that is the word but, maybe the question should be who encouraged me and those who encouraged me were Chiefs Koleosho and Lam Adesina.

When was the parting point?
I think it’s like when you are in your father’s house, and you want to get married, and you know that you are mature enough to get married, and your father says no, don’t get married now. And you know that the wife you want to marry will travel out of the country, and once the wife goes, it will take another four years for her to come back, so, it is either you wait for that wife to come back or you marry her now. That was just it. I just felt that there was a need for me to go, there was no quarrel, we didn’t quarrel and I will even say we did not part ways really; we didn’t part ways.

Do you still contact, relate?
Yes, we relate when we see each other.

You don’t call him; he doesn’t call you.
No! But when I see him, I greet him, he greets me, which is okay.

Let us come to your relationship with former Governor Rashidi Ladoja who about four days to the last elections publicly endorsed you, and a few days after your election, he directed his people to another party, did you quarrel with him or what happened?
No, no, no, we didn’t quarrel at all, I think what Ladoja was saying was that ‘look at all the candidates, this is the one with the best quality that I see, support him,’ that’s all. We were not in the same party. It takes me back to what I was saying before, let us begin to look at quality, forget about all the parties because in the real sense of it, there are no differences among them.

Many of them don’t have manifestoes. It’s the same, in fact, late Bola Ige wrote most of them off, so, what are we saying. What’s the difference between them? As far as I am concerned, I think what former Governor Ladoja did was to say of all the candidates , ‘I believe Senator Abiola Ajimobi is the one that has the quality for support,’ and that was what he did. We are still very close, we are friends. You see, I don’t play politics of bitterness, whether it’s Adeojo, Ladoja; even Baba Adedibu, I went to his burial, because Baba had never offended me, he never abused me; never, he was very close to my father, so for me, politics is not do-or-die, that’s why sometimes, if I talk, they say I’m arrogant, because if you tell people the truth, they say you are arrogant, they don’t even know the definition of arrogance. There is difference between self-pride and arrogance. When you over- estimate yourself, it becomes arrogance, if I say I have N10 and truly I have N10, is that arrogance?But when I have N10 and I say I have N20, that is arrogance. I will tell the truth till I die, it’s too late for me to tell lies. So, note that Alhaji Lam Adesina is my uncle, he is an elder, I have nothing against him, but I disagree with him; the fact that I’m younger than you doesn’t mean I don’t have my own life; it doesn’t mean I cannot disagree with you.

Professor Humphrey Nwosu, former National Electoral Commission,NEC, boss has just come up with a book on the June 12, 1993 presidential elections, what do you think Nwosu is trying to tell Nigerians after 15years?
Don’t mind him, he is a very unserious person; he waited for 15 years out of fear. Probably, I will forgive him, if he had been writing the book 15years back, but if he started the book two years or three years ago, he would have forgotten many of the things that really happened. His writing will be shaped by what he wants to say as against what actually happened. It’s like if anything happens to you now, if you wait till tomorrow to write about it, it will be affected by your perception. But the fact that he really tried to write something, maybe, we should commend him, at least, he didn’t take it away with him.

What do we expect in Oyo politics after Adedibu?
I think after any politician who has been around for a long time departs, there would be movement round. I said Adedibu, culturally, traditionally, is my father, he was my good father, he never abused me, he never did anything wrong to me, he had his own brand of politics and that brand is gone. It has expired, every product has its expiry date. It started at infancy, maturity, and old age and death, that era is gone, Chief Adedibu has the advantage of age, no other person can be like him, the environment is changing in such a way that nobody can be allowed to play that type of politics, because people are beginning to talk, they are getting wiser, and if anybody is thinking he is going to fit into Adedibu’s shoes, he had many shoes, which shoes do you want to fit into?Is it the intellectual shoes, political shoes, imaginations, instincts, kindness? It is sheer waste of time saying Adedibu’s shoes. Nobody can fit into anybody’s shoes, everybody is made up of his or her own nature and character; Adedibu had his own nature and character, which is different from his children’s. Two people can never be the same. I think he had his own time, and he succeeded at his own game because he designed it, he was a master of his game, the same way Fela Anikulapo Kuti designed his own brand of music which nobody can copy.

What is your assessment of the administrations of the last one year, both in Oyo State and that of Yar’Adua at the centre?
It is a government of non-performance, it is a government that has not performed creditably. Out of four years, you are using one-and-a-half years to study the situation, you didn’t study it before coming there. If I become governor, am I going to get there and start studying? No, I already know what I want to do, because we all know the problem, there was no PHCN, do they need all the time in the world to study that? No good roads, so, what are they studying? As far as I am concerned, Yar’Adua has followed Due Process, his own word is rule of law. There was the Green Revolution. Obasanjo also spoke of due process which was used to steal all the money. They used due process for NEPA, NITEL and he wasn’t wrong. I think Yar’Adua has moved us better toward a civilised society, he has been very cautious with his respect for the rule of law, he does not play God, which makes him different from the former president. At least, he is consulting, the only thing is that we want this period of consultation to come to an end now because “ t’eyan ba fi ogun odun pilese were, odun wo ni o ma to bu igi je?” ( If one spends all the time planning, when will the execution begin). He has brought civility into governance, he has brought decency into governance, and you don’t see people running, shouting around, disobeying court orders, but in terms of meaningful development, I think he must move faster, but for the state, you can see it yourself, you are in the state. They got N27 billion and they started buying vehicles all over the place.

There is much money in Nigerian politics, especially with the revelations at the ongoing probes in the National Assembly. Is this how politics is played all over the world?
Are you asking me, when did I come into politics? I came into politics in 2002; I think most of these people are tricksters, they tell lies, they ambush Nigerians, look at what they are revealing, but in the end what will happen to them? I really feel sad for the country and particularly for the citizens. Have you seen any civil servant that says politicians should not steal, who will not agree and insist that those who steal must go to jail. It is when such begins to happen and the civil servants say ‘they won’t work,’ then, things will begin to change.

But nobody talks, they accept it and they will say ‘what can we do?’ and the moment you say ‘what can you do?’ you can never do anything, so I think if some politicians come and steal money and get away with it, everybody will come and steal it. Look at the rigging of elections that happened, have they jailed anybody?Nobody has been punished, instead, they give them positions, they made them commissioners, ministers, so this country has a problem, a big one, and the only way it can change is when people themselves want to change, but if they want to change, they must be ready to act, but if they keep sitting down and say ‘God will change it,’ nothing will happen. God will never come here and change anything because God that created us has given us control of the world. He says go there, you shall be the controller of everything, and then you are calling the same God to come down and do it for you, he will never come. God doesn’t operate that way, and that is why God says thou shall not tempt thy Lord at all.